In the book, Good Omen's  the argument of nature verses nurture comes up as Crowley and Aziraphale are discussing the future of the anti-christ. Both Crowley and Aziraphale are fighting it out for the soul of this child, "the Adversary, Destroyer of Kings, Angel if the Bottomless Pit, Great Beast that is called Dragon, Prince of This World, Father of Lies, Spawn of Satan, and Lord of Darkness." (Gaiman & Pratchett. Good Omen's, pg 42). Crowley argues that, "". . . the birth is just the start. It's the upbringing  that's important. It's the Influences. Otherwise the child will never learn to use its powers." He hesitated. "At least, not necessarily as intended."" (pg 58). Here they are more or less questioning the nature of a person which is something that I have noticed came up many times throughout the beginning of Good Omen's and even in the plot of the poem by John Milton, "Paradise Lost". 

Right from the beginning, Crawly and Aziraphale question what would happen if Crawly, a demon pre-programmed to do wrong and evil had done the good thing and Aziraphale, an angel with a good-doing nature was the one who had committed the evil act in regards to the fall of Adam and Eve. Aziraphale tells Crawly that he is not even sure that Crawly even has the capacity to do good, after all he is a demon. (pg 4). It seems as though it is just expected that the demons are only capable of evil-doings and angels are only able to do good deeds. As though maybe there is a set model for angels to follow, and an even stricter one for the demons?

As I began to think of how one can define the nature of a person I immediately connected it to free will. I think that a person as was said in the poem, "Paradise Lost" is given free will by God and therefore is capable to make their own decisions and thus will determine their human nature. In the book Good Omen's Aziraphale says, "the whole point was that when a human was good or bad it was because they wanted to be."; nurture (pg 39). He goes farther to say that angels and demons are set in their ways from the beginning; nature. I believe this to be true, for the most part. I believe that humans are capable of being of both a good or an evil nature depending on the situation. This seems to revert back to one of my previous posts that talked about the book 19 Minutes (to revert back to this post: http://writerslost.blogspot.com/2008/09/eves-dream.html ).

 Basically I was exploring the idea that just because people have thoughts and ideas does not mean that they will act upon these ideas. I think that this would go even further to question whether or not one's free will to act upon these dark thoughts would stem back to the type of person that they are. One of the ideas that the book addresses is whether a person who commits a heinous crime such as committing a mass murder was born a psychopath or if his environment growing up had shaped him into who he was when he decided to commit the crime. 

I have to wonder whether one could call Eve's reasoning for eating from the Forbidden Tree a case of nature or nurture. One could argue that it was in her nature to be curious, naïve and vain; attributes that allowed her to be easily deceived by Satan. Or does the argument stand that Eve had been more or less oppressed by Adam for her entire existence that she subconsciously made the decision to eat the apple and thus destroy paradise. 

"Free will for everyone. Ineffable right?" (pg 107) --- Crowley 

However I have reservations concerning the notion that angels and demons are set in their ways right from the beginning. As I mention before, both Crawly and Aziraphale have questioned what the nature of their actions were: whether they were in-line with their pre-determined molds or if they had strayed and adapted the other's role. They both question whether this is possible which makes me believe that even though they have had many experiences this is something that they have not yet tested and are therefore relying on the information that is pumped to them as correct. I also find this to be in question because they are trying to rationalize and sway the actions of a demon child whom they believe is to be evil by nature but is instead a normal human child which would thus mean that even Warlock were to grow up to be evil that it would not be due to the nature that they believe it to be, but instead his nurturing and upbringing as a child. In many ways I believe it is up to a person's free will the determines their behavior: human, angel, or demon. 

Please let me know what you think!

Emily

p.s. - what's with the hating on the Golden Girls on page 71?! I love that show and actually as sad as it is I'm actually watching it as I write this post :P

Adam vs. Adam

I just wanted to pull a lauren and say that I will go back to edit this post later. I want to do a compare and contrast to the Adam character in Paradise Lost and Adam in Good Omens if someone did not claim it already.

Whatever you Do, Don't Touch the Apple

I was reading Corrie's blog titled "Paradise Lost and Fairy Tales," in which she suggests the similarities between evil witches tempting vulnerable individuals with objects and Satan/Adam/Eve of Paradise Lost.
Link: http://paradiselostcommonplace.blogspot.com/2008/10/paradise-lost-and-fairy-tales.html

Though I think Corrie has several good points, I also find it fascinating that in many fairy tales, the APPLE has been a common item used for temptation. Since Genesis was probably written before these Fairy Tales, I'd say its safe to assume that the use of an apple may be based on the story of Adam and Eve.

What I am wondering is, why on earth (or paradise for that matter) would you ever pick an apple to tempt someone with? Perhaps it is the ripeness of the perfect skin of an apple, or maybe the anticipation of mouth watering, savory fruit juice...
Either way, it's somewhat interesting that the apple is used. After all, why not a banana? Or a kiwi? Maybe a papaya?
I don't seem to have an answer for this.

I reread Genesis and I came to the realization that there was no mention of an apple. It was always referred to as "the fruit." It is rather surprising that the assumption is indeed an apple. So many fairy tales and stories rely on the apple, yet, Genesis does not even mention what the fruit is. In a book I found online, Apples: The Story of the Fruit of Temptation by Frank Browning, it briefly states that apples had different roles in different religions and cultures. For example, Egyptians gave apples to their high priestess as a gift. According to the author, "no one thought to hang them on the tree of knowledge until the fourth or fifth century AD, when apple trees began appearing in woodcuts and ecclesiastical drawings." (Browning, 65). In the Eastern Church, the forbidden fruit was figs, whereas other churches argued that grapes were the forbidden fruit.

The apple is also seen in Norse mythology, suggested as a fruit that brings immortality and perpetual youth. After further research that consisted of trying to find scholarly articles in between articles about Apple Store and cooking books, I was able to find another book titled, The Story of the Apple. This book, besides addressing the history of the apple, discusses how iconic the apple has become and perhaps always been, in society.

The author, Barrie Juniper, says that it is not just Adam and Eve who are associated with the apple. In fact, the Greek Goddess of Love and Beauty, Aphrodite, is known to carry an apple in her hands. Interestingly enough, the golden apple of Aphrodite has a huge impact on her story. It is said that on the wedding day, the Goddess of discord, Eris, wanted to ruin the wedding. She rolled a golden apple into the wedding halll with an inscription that said, "To the Fairest." The three goddesses wanted Zeus to decide which one of them should be able to get the apple, but instead, sent them to Troy to see Paris. Aphrodite, picked as one of the three fair Goddesses, told Paris that if he picked her as the most fairest, than she would give him a beautiful woman (who was Helen at the time) to have as his wife**. Paris gave Aphrodite the apple, and she is blamed to have started the Trojan war because of Paris's desire for Helen (Browning, 137). What is interesting is that the apple plays a role of temptation in this myth too. It tempts Aphrodite because she wants the title of being the most fair, but is also helps to tempt Paris. The downfall of receiving the apple is the start of the Trojan war, suggesting that the apple itself is a forbidden fruit.

Jupiter also mentions stories that include the apple such as the story of Muhammad, who inhaled eternal life through the scent of an apple, and the story of The Arabian Nights where a prince buys a magic apple that cures all diseases. Other writers, such as Michael Drayton and Andrew Marvel, refer to apples in their poetry and nature scenes (Juniper, 138). I am still researching this history as I have had some trouble finding really good sources, but I think it is rather fascinating how the apple has so many uses and meanings, especially among different religions and cultures. It is also used in sayings such as "the apple of one's eye." The apple represents many things: temptation, the fall, love, immortality, and beauty. Other symbols however, like the rose, are limited in what they are associated with. It's interesting to see how people come up with these associations, and how the apple has had an impact on so many stories today.

Even Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett mention the apple in their novel, "Good Omens." At the end of the book, this quote helped strike my interest in the apple: "And there was never an apple, in Adam's opinion, that wasn't worth the trouble you got into for eating it" (398). (I'm still analyzing this quote). Somehow I seem to think that people who added apples into myths didn't disagree with Adam's view.

I suppose no one knows for sure who decided that the apple brought about Adam's and Eve's fall, but one thing I do know for certain is that if I had been the one to decide on the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, I definitely would have made it the papaya. After all, no one ever suspects the papaya...




Browning, Frank. Apples: The Story of the Fruit of Temptation. Macmillan, 1999.

Juniper, Barrie. The Story of the Apple. Timber Press, 2006.

**Some basic information gathered from Wikipedia

Revision Blog: On the Quote Post

Hey all, this is my revision blog! (yayyy?). I am revising the first blog I ever wrote. Here's the link: http://writerslost.blogspot.com/2008/09/quote-post-for-paradise-lost.html

So, I want to explain that I have a lot of little post it notes laying around with different blog ideas that I have never gotten around to writing, so these posts may seem to cover a lot of older things that happened a really long time ago. So sorry.

"Nor failed they to express how much they praised/That for the gen'ral safety he despised/His own: for neither do the spirits damned/Lose all their virtue, lest bad men should boast/Their specious deeds  on earth which glory excites,/Or close ambition varnished o'er with zeal." (II, 480-485)

This quote still stands out in my mind and it definitely seemed to relate to the rest of Milton's epic poem. Originally, I had said that it made sense that even demons maintained virtue. I still agree with my previous statement in that regard. However, I had begun to consider (a long time ago actually) another fact as to why Milton states that fallen angels maintain their virtue. In my first paper, I wrote about how these retained virtues seemed to make demons more human like, thus suggesting that demonic as well as angelic characteristics are found in man. I also suggested the idea that any individual/being can fall, given the right circumstances.
For example, I'm just going to touch on the idea of the seven deadly sins since I'm pretty sure I have already written a blog on that and other people have pointed out the same things. The characters of Belial, Moloch, and Satan retain the sins of sloth, greed, and pride. Humanity itself relates these sins into its own religions and views. Since humans can maintain sin, then obviously they possess traits of "evil." However, these traits are only seen as truly evil if they are taken to an extreme, which helps define the line between good and evil. Apparently Satan believes he can tempt Adam and Eve, which also shows that he believes evil is found in man as well.
God's knowledge of the Fall can also be seen as the knowledge of good and evil in Man. Since God predicts man's fall, it is reasonable to assume that He knows man can commit sin. However, since we are given free will, and people do choose to live under God's way, "good" traits are also shown in man. Ultimately, God created angels and humans the same way. He created them in His image. If God is good, then Man is good as well, even after they fall.
I think this quote is one that is worth really thinking about because I feel that it implies as well as applies to many things, especially Paradise Lost. I could go on and on about this, but I already wrote a paper on it so I'd rather not. I just decided to revise my first blog a little bit.

Replying to a Response about Perfection

This post is in response to Sheryl’s post about Marjorie’s post about Satan being more interesting than God, Sheryl states that she thinks God is no less interesting than Satan. Here's the link:

http://paradisetranslation1011.blogspot.com/2008/11/response-to-perfection.html

I tend to agree with this, because, when one thinks about the subject, God supposedly knows everything. He is the reason everything happens. Even just by reading the poem, one begins to question God and his reasons. Why would God let Satan tempt Adam and Eve? If he wanted them to have free will, why couldn’t he have simply let them have the tree as temptation and not allowed Satan to be any part of their lives? And why did God let Satan and the other angels fall in the first place? So many questions about this just seem to lead the reader in circles. While Milton tries to justify God’s ways to man, I feel that he is just as confused as everyone else as to what, exactly, God’s reasons were.

In Marjorie’s post, she says “Perfection is boring!!! What exciting thing ever happens from knowing everything? With Satan, it’s different. We expect drama; we expect conflicts; we expect emotions; we expect chaos erupting from the depths of our soul. With Satan, he appears to be just like us.” While I certainly agree with the majority of what she says, I don’t believe that perfection is boring. This is what I agree with Sheryl on. Satan is, without a doubt, very interesting. He seems like us, and he seems to be unpredictable. It seems that Satan is just as capable of making mistakes as we are, whereas God is not, because He is perfect. However, just because God knows everything doesn’t mean there is nothing interesting. Sure, I suppose much that happened wouldn’t surprise him, but he surprises everyone else based on what he does. God knows everything that has happened and will happen, according to Milton. If this is the case, one must think about how intriguing it is that he allows things to happen the way they do. It’s amazing that God lets Adam and Eve be tempted and fall. Why would God do this? Why would God allow these kinds of things to happen? If God is perfect and all-knowing, why wouldn’t he simply keep things perfect? Now, wouldn’t that be boring?

Real

After gaining sudden inspiration to add another paragraph to my latest paper, I decided that I would expand up on it for everyone to enjoy. That is, if you enjoy reading about Paradise Lost of course.

This may sound a bit harsh, but humans now can essentially be considered "broken". Thanks Adam and Eve. According to the poem, before the fall Adam, Eve, and thier offspring were eventually supposed to replace a third of the angels that were lost in Heaven from Satan's hissy fit. Like angels, they were immortal, and should posses certain angelic properties since they were eventually supposed to become them. Thier relationship was ideal too, but after gaining knowledge they became more relatable characters. I will quote my from my latest paper:

"Right before their fall, Eve wanted to do their work in a different way than Adam wanted to. They worked it through with little distress. Dealing with problems this way is an ideal way to handle a situation. Handing your loved one over to God to sanction, and then saving yourself is not an ideal way to tackle your problems. Then again, some humans are known to do some pretty radical things when they are upset. (Harrington, 7)."

Humans are exactly what they become. They were humans before, but the couple was more on the border of angelic and "perfect", and without sin. They did not sin before, but after sinning will now become inevitable. People today sin on a daily basis. We were originally not supposed to do that before, according to the story. If Adam and Eve did not sin, according to plan, we were not supposed to either. Another parallel to being angelic. But after the fall, humans now sin, are nolonger immortal, and can be a bit irrational. Not qualities that are supposed to be prevalent in angels. Thier relationship is prone to upset as well, but it is this that makes them more relatable and hence, human. They go from being the ideal example of a couple in which we are supposed to heed by, to a more modern and attainable example.

Harrington, Andrea. "Marriage, Interupted." 2008.

Paradise Lost/Pandora's Box

Toward the middle and end of Book XI, the scene where Michael is showing Adam all of the things that have been unleashed due to their sin reminded me greatly of the Greek myth of Pandora’s Box. Michael shows Adam (and Eve in a dream) how the world will no longer always be beautiful, and there will be more than just good. Because of their sin, God’s wrath will be unleashed on the world. Michael explains death and despair and the other awful things that will now be part of their once perfect world. Adam is shown all of the awful things that will now be in the world they live in. However, before Adam and Eve have to leave the garden, Adam tells the angel that he feels their temptation was a good thing. This allows God to be greater than before

In the Greek myth of Pandora, a young woman was created after Prometheus stole fire from Olympus. Pandora was the first woman, and meant to be a punishment for mankind. She was given a jar filled with several gifts from the Gods, but told to keep it closed. However, Pandora was given the gift of curiosity, which tempted her to open it. When she finally did, all things evil, including diseases and hard labor were released. She was able to close it, leaving only one thing left inside the box; Hope.

When Adam says temptation was a good thing because God will be shown as greater than ever before, it is very similar to the bottom of Pandora’s Box, where hope comes from. It seems to me that Adam, after being shown all things evil, finally finds hope that everything will be alright again; that mankind will be saved. The last thing that was in Pandora’s Box was Hope. This was what made all of the evils in life bearable.